PUSHBACK

Ask questions of the training staff and fellow controllers. Also training FAQs

Moderator: ZSE Administrative Staff

Post Reply
Peter Armstrong
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:05 am

PUSHBACK

Post by Peter Armstrong » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:03 am

Ok. Whilst observing I do like to listen-in to other controllers/pilots so that I may pick-up some good practice tips and hints. We all can get a little complacent about our own performance on either side of the scope.

However, unfortunately, we can also pick up some questionable piloting/ATC procedures that can undermine our training regimes.

As a matter for clarity, can I please share with you a Mentor’s advice to a student on GND. When the pilot asked GND for push-back and start the Mentor advised the controller to say to the pilot “contact the company for this procedure, ATC does not have any say in operations not on the taxiways or runways”.

I was always instructed to follow the following procedure:-

Pilot: requests clearance
ATC: responds with clearance
Pilot: reads back clearance
ATC: “Read back correct, Push back and/or start at pilot discretion, expect Runway 16L, advise when ready for taxi”

I don’t think a pilot would understand the terminology “contact your company for pushback or start”

If recent procedures have now changed to qualify that, I would be very interested to know so that I may update my service.

Meanwhile, the statement “……………….ATC does not have any say in operations not on the taxiways or runways” could be misleading, particularly when we can authorise rotary departures from positions other than taxiways/runways!
Happy controlling/flying :beer:
Valor Morghulis
Valor Dohaeris
Caveat Lector

Dylan Lundberg
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:37 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Dylan Lundberg » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:40 am

This is correct...I was trained as well to say p/s at pilots discretion. HOWEVER, I DO NOT issue that instruction to a pilot if I see on my radar that he will likely push onto an active taxiway. At that point, I tell them to call for push back so they don't screw up my ground sequence.
--
Image
VATUSA9 - Air Traffic Director, Northeast Region

Frank Miller
ZSE Training Administrator
ZSE Training Administrator
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Frank Miller » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:43 pm

Peter,

Of course, it may be that you didn’t get the full exchange if you were only observing——maybe the pilot was going for a little more immersion than usual and asked “do I ask my company for that?” Or something similar?

Anyway, you are correct that in ordinary circumstances it isn’t appropriate to suggest a pilot contact anyone in particular with respect to non-movement area operations. Technically the place to do that is Unicom.

A small correction——we do not authorise helo operations from non-movement areas. A departure from the ramp is at the risk of the helo pilot. ATC merely provides wind, a departure instruction (e.g. direction and altitude) and traffic advisories.

Frank

Peter Armstrong
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:05 am

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Peter Armstrong » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:26 am

I did get the full picture (TeamSpeak and on channel). The pilot did NOT instigate the situation and, he was utterly confused.

I agree that it is at pilot discretion for helo dep in that area but, we - as ATC - communicate as such to the pilot which still contradicts the scenario “ATC does not have any say in operations not on the taxiways or runways”. Ha Ha! If this was the case, then we would not be allowed to give clearances as the A/C is on a non-contact area.

Maybe, it might be prudent to install clarification into a SOP or other training document? It seems that our records are silent on this subject.
Happy controlling/flying :beer:
Valor Morghulis
Valor Dohaeris
Caveat Lector

Frank Miller
ZSE Training Administrator
ZSE Training Administrator
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Frank Miller » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:51 pm

Peter,

The topic is covered in the VATUSA CBT and is clear from 7110.65 para 3-7-2 (note 2).

And, not to quibble, but a pilot does not have discretion to depart a controlled airport from the ramp or other non-movement areas. They need to contact ATC before entering the controlled area just above the non-movement area (i.e. the air!).

Think of it this way: ATC controls the taxiway, so before you ENTER the taxiway, you need to talk to ATC. Just as ATC controls the airspace from the surface up to the ceiling of the Class B/C/D airspace, you need to talk to ATC before entering that airspace, even though your starting place is a non-controlled place. On the other hand, if you just want to wander around the non-movement area on the ground, you can do that without talking to ATC at all because ATC does not control that area.

I think this is clear from the training materials available to our students.

Frank

Peter Armstrong
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:05 am

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Peter Armstrong » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:03 am

A small correction——we do not authorise helo operations from non-movement areas. A departure from the ramp is at the risk of the helo pilot. ATC merely provides wind, a departure instruction (e.g. direction and altitude) and traffic advisories.
Sorry – what I meant by “discretion”/responsibility was “at your own risk”

If takeoff is requested from an area not visible, an area not authorized for helicopter use, an unlighted nonmovement area at night, or an area off the airport, and traffic is not a factor, use the following phraseology:
DEPARTURE FROM (requested location) WILL BE AT YOUR OWN RISK (reason and additional instructions, as
necessary)




If landing is requested to an area not visible, an area not authorized for helicopter use, an unlighted nonmovement area at night, or an area off the airport, and traffic is not a factor, use the following phraseology:
LANDING AT (requested location) WILL BE AT YOUR OWN RISK (reason and additional instructions, as
necessary).
TRAFFIC (as applicable),
or
TRAFFIC NOT A FACTOR.
============================================================================

Mentor instruction to Student - to advise pilot
"contact the company for this procedure, ATC does not have any say in operations not on the taxiways or runways”.

But, getting back on topic - do we instruct pilots to contact Company for push back and/or start?
Happy controlling/flying :beer:
Valor Morghulis
Valor Dohaeris
Caveat Lector

Frank Miller
ZSE Training Administrator
ZSE Training Administrator
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Frank Miller » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:47 am

No.

Peter Armstrong
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:05 am

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Peter Armstrong » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:52 am

Great - thanks


So, will continue to use :- "Readback correct, Push back and/or start at pilot discretion, expect Runway XYZ, advise when ready for taxi"
Happy controlling/flying :beer:
Valor Morghulis
Valor Dohaeris
Caveat Lector

Dylan Lundberg
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:37 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Dylan Lundberg » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:54 pm

Peter Armstrong wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:52 am
Great - thanks


So, will continue to use :- "Readback correct, Push back and/or start at pilot discretion, expect Runway XYZ, advise when ready for taxi"
Sounds like a plan, Peter. Don't forget that we do have the option to tell a pilot "SWA9457, call for p/s" if they are going to push onto an active taxiway, as the pilot needs this clearance to do so in the first place. This comes in handy during medium-high volume traffic levels at KSEA (a lot of guys like to push onto bravo), and at KPDX (Mostly with the south side of taxiway T). I use this instruction so a pilot wanting to push onto the taxiway doesn't screw up my sequence (if applicable) on the ground.

Blue Skies (or black radars?)
--
Image
VATUSA9 - Air Traffic Director, Northeast Region

Peter Armstrong
ZSE Controller
ZSE Controller
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:05 am

Re: PUSHBACK

Post by Peter Armstrong » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:05 am

Thanks Dylan - excellent piece of advice

Best regards

Peter
Happy controlling/flying :beer:
Valor Morghulis
Valor Dohaeris
Caveat Lector

Post Reply