CIRCLING

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Peter Armstrong
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CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:10 am

Instrument approaches

Example:- https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1901/00645VA.PDF
This seems probably obvious but, will require further clarifications

"altimeter $altimeter($arr), Proceed direct Habor, cross Habor at or above 5400, Circle to land, clrd
VOR A into KOLM"
NOTE−
1. The altitude assigned must assure IFR obstruction
clearance from the point at which the approach clearance
is issued until established on a segment of a published route
or instrument approach procedure.


-v- https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1901/00142VA.PDF

1 of 4 IAFs

"altimeter $altimeter($arr), Proceed direct ZELIG , cross ZELIG at or above 2000, clrd VOR A, RWY 16R, into KPAE, report inbound ZELIG"

The Chart does NOT state RWY 16R (VOR-A) however, the chart certainly indicates by way of presentation that it is 16R. And, the chart states CIRCLING, which normally indicates "circle to land, RWY (Pilot choice)? However, it certainly looks like a DME Arc procedure, with or without procedure turns.

Any advice?
Last edited by Peter Armstrong on Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Peter Armstrong
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:43 am

JUST EXAMPLES - Some procedures change/adjust under certain other detailed circumstances

CONTROLLED AIRPORT

"A/C Callsign" "cleared direct XYZ, cross XYZ at or above XXXX feet, cleared VOR-A approach; circle to land RWY 22R, report procedure turn inbound."

-or-

"A/C Callsign" " 19 miles from ABC VOR, turn right HDG 065 to intercept outbound radial ABC 080, cleared direct XYZ, cross XYZ at or above 5700,. Cleared VOR-A approach, circle to land RWY 16L, report procedure turn inbound"

UNCONTROLLED AIRPORT
1. "A/C Callsign" "cleared direct XYZ, cross XYZ at or above XXXX feet, cleared VOR-A approach into AAA Airport; 2. **report procedure turn inbound."

3. **pilot reports inbound from the procedure turn

4. "A/C Callsign" " no traffic observed between you and the airport; radar services terminated; report IFR cancellation or Missed Approach on this frequency, change to advisory frequency, resume own navigation, enjoy your flight
5. Pilot reports IFR cancellation.
6. "A/C Callsign" " IFR cancellation received xxxxZ.

Note:-**
Maybe, Items 2 and 3 are not required (we have no control over the actual procedure once we hand off to Unicomm). Therefore, we would only use Item 1. 4.5. and 6.?
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Mike Fries
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Mike Fries » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:36 pm

While these approaches meet the straight-in criteria based on course, then you go to the vertical descent angle and find that they are around a 5 degree angle which disqualifies these approaches from being straight-in (max 3.77 degrees). This is why they are circling only.

1. Just wondering where did you come up with 5400 for HABOR?

I use cleared direct usually rather than proceed direct. This thread pretty much sums up why I do that
https://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=30593

2. "Cleared direct HABOR, Cross HABOR at or above 3000 (or higher MVA), Cleared VOR-A Approach, Circle to Rwy 17"
3. "Cleared direct ZELIG, Cross ZELIG at or above 2000 (careful of your MVAs), Cleared VOR-A Approach, Circle to Rwy 16R"

4. Have them report if you wish.

5. For your uncontrolled example, don't need to say feet or into. The name of the airport isn't required either but its ok to say.

6. IFR cancellation received don't need to say the time.

Peter Armstrong
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:35 am

"1. Just wondering where did you come up with 5400 for HABOR?"

Glad you brought this up Mike! It was brought to my attention by a past ATM that when using the instrument approach technique we should be aware of the MSA on the chart and NOT clear an aircraft to proceed direct a fix below that MSA when they are arriving via a compass point which takes them over that MSA. Hence, HABOR - aircraft arriving from the S/E = 5400. I, personally, would like to use the Chart altitude given to the FIX, in this case at or above 3000.

Funny thing about "at or above", does this mean that an aircraft given "at or above 3000" can cross the FIX at 5400 for example? I think that this would be a good topic "thread" for further discussion on instrument approach procedures (not ILS/LOC approaches)
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Frank Miller
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Frank Miller » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:54 am

A tangential point on this exchange...... assuming I understood it right from a magazine article I read once on TERPS and how the enroute system integrates with the approach system.

If you instruct an IFR aircraft “cleared direct” to a fix, you are taking responsibility for terrain and obstruction avoidance—-so the MVA becomes your critical altitude (as Mike says). That may or may not provide the pilot a way to get down lower in order to fly the approach easily.

The alternative is to leave the pilot on an airway (assume he is on one) and let him fly it to the initial fix (or to a fix with a lead line to the IAF, such as the VOR-A at KOLM). Using that approach as an example, if the pilot is coming in on any of the many airways to OLM, he might be able to descend to 6000, 4000 or even 2000 (the MOCA on the V165 and V287, for instance). They can then fly the VOR-A from OLM, though they’d need to fly the lead line from OLM to HABOR at 3000.

My point is that the IFR system gives ATC lots of techniques to avoid taking on workload. At VATSIM, we tend to start with “vectors to final” (the highest workload for ATC!) and don’t do much to teach what other choices we have to let pilots fly their aircraft using the elegance of the IFR system to its greatest advantage for them and us!

Frank

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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:20 am

I revisited our CBT and they state "proceed direct" rather than "cleared direct" (vectoring to the Initial Approach Fix)


https://www.vatusa.net/cbt
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Chris Brettrager
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Chris Brettrager » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:24 am

What Frank said, MSA circle on chart has zero significance to an ATC, it is only for a pilot in case of lost coms from ATC in an emergency, again it's the minimum safe altitude when you don't know where you are at. We have MVA, MIA and MEA for that. It's an understandable misunderstanding but we have updated sector files over the years to help use these tools Frank mentions.

And it's definitely cleared direct, but as usual the "VATSIM" SOPs always seem to be misinformed. Honestly if everything has to be a debate this just isn't worth it to me.
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Peter Armstrong
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:34 am

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Chris Brettrager
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Chris Brettrager » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:40 am

FAA 7110.65 5-9-4

"Seven miles from
FOORE, cleared direct FORRE, cross FORRE at or above
four thousand, cleared RNAV runway one eight
approach.”
Instructor - I've been here for too long...
"He who stands a top the mountain for everyone to see, does not lead. He who finds a way to move the mountain, he is the one who leads." - Christian Brettrager

Mike Fries
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Mike Fries » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:14 am

Peter Armstrong wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:35 am

Funny thing about "at or above", does this mean that an aircraft given "at or above 3000" can cross the FIX at 5400 for example? I think that this would be a good topic "thread" for further discussion on instrument approach procedures (not ILS/LOC approaches)
They could if their assigned altitude before that was say 6000 but they can't climb

Peter Armstrong
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:33 pm

Thanks Mike- I am glad that subject is now clear. I think the problem we face on VATSIM virtual is that we have a flow of different ATMs/TAs/DATMs/INSs/Mentors and, some of them have different ideas. Would it not be more productive to embed such items into our training documents? Or, into the VATUSA CBT?

Many thanks

Peter
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Chris Brettrager
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Chris Brettrager » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:08 pm

...FAA ORDER 7110.65
Instructor - I've been here for too long...
"He who stands a top the mountain for everyone to see, does not lead. He who finds a way to move the mountain, he is the one who leads." - Christian Brettrager

Peter Armstrong
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:28 pm

Anybody can quote 7110.65X, but can they find the detail therein and abstract it, then incorporate it into the Virtual world? Should Students be allowed to update our SOPs, training documents and materials? We can all sit here all day and make quotes! Simples!!!
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:55 am

NOT JUST CIRCLING!

Putting some meat on the bones?

1. TRAINING DOCUMENTS
2. MINOR APPROACH
3. NON-PRECISION APPROACH TO CONTROLLED AIRPORT

PDX APP: ‘N57SF cleared direct BANKS, cross BANKS at or above three thousand six hundred feet, cleared NDB-BRAVO approach; circle to land [assign runway based on METAR], report procedure turn inbound.’ Should not the Airport be mentioned in this clearance?

[pilot reports inbound from the procedure turn]

PDX APP: ‘N57SF report established on final [assigned runway].’ Is this approach an IFR instrument approach or, an approach that has turned into a VFR profile?

[pilot reports established on final; then give normal landing clearance wind/alt cleared to land.] Does normal landing clearance now incorporate the altimeter? Surely this was given upon first radar contact for an arrival aircraft?

OK! The above Training material does suggest that the pilot should “report procedure turn inbound”. However, if there is no procedure turn then, is it suggested that the pilot reports over the FAF – instead of “established on final” (usually a VFR term). The clearance to land can then be given.
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Re: CIRCLING

Post by Peter Armstrong » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:27 am

1. NON-PRECISION APPROACH TO UNCONTROLLED AIRPORT

PDX APP: ‘N57SF cleared direct BTG, cross BTG at or above five thousand six hundred feet, cleared VOR/DME-ALPHA approach into Scappoose Airpark [don’t assign runway/circling as this is uncontrolled field], report procedure turn inbound.’

The instruction – in this instance – incorporates the name of the airport. Is it to be assumed that the factor which determines the naming of the airport is “controlled” v ”uncontrolled”?
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