KPDX v KSEA

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Peter Armstrong
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KPDX v KSEA

Post by Peter Armstrong » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:16 am

RNAV Departures

Whilst undergoing training at KPDX, my INS/MTRs always insisted that we use the phraseology "RNAV TO PEGTY/RIVRR, wind xxxx, RWY zz, cleared for take-off".

At KSEA we have :-DODVE/CAVOB (RWYs 16L/34R), plus others for other runways.

Any comments?

Also, the new SIDs (ISBRG/JEFPO/OZWLD) are RNAV departures, initial DODVE. The RNAV portion of these radar vector SIDs instruct the pilot to RNAV to ISBRG, then on course 259°, expect RADAR vectors on course./ to JEFPO, then on course 343°, expect RADAR vectors on course./ to OZWLD, then on course 210°, expect RADAR vectors on course.

The question is:- Do we radar contact upon departure and say, (for example only) “Radar contact, 1 mile north of KSEA through 1500, climb and maintain 15000, cleared direct XYZ” or, do we wait to give the Radar Vector as they approach the RNAV destination point (ISBRG/JEFPO/OZWLD)?
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Frank Miller
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Re: KPDX v KSEA

Post by Frank Miller » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:24 pm

The use of "RNAV to PEGTY/RIVVR" in the takeoff clearance is consistent with 7110.65 5-8-2, which deals with issuing an initial heading. This is from 5-8-2 (c): "When conducting simultaneous parallel runway departures utilizing RNAV SIDs, advise aircraft of the initial fix/waypoint on the RNAV route."

So at KPDX while conducting simultaneous parallel runway departures you should issue the initial RNAV waypoint with your takeoff clearance, per 5-8-2(c). You might consider it odd given that all the RNAV departures from KPDX have the same initial fix irrespective of which runway you depart from. In the FAA Notice relevant to the change made to 5-8-2 that introduced this phraseology (see https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 10.595.pdf) it is reasonably clear that the phraseology is intended to ensure pilots check the initial fix to ensure they have loaded the correct procedure into their FMS. So if a pilot has loaded the wrong direction for the departure, the initial fix you give them in your takeoff clearance will not match their FMS and the pilot will be alerted to the potential mistake. (NB: at other airports, the initial RNAV waypoint on an RNAV SID might vary between runways as well).

Note that we cannot run simultaneous parallel runway departures at KSEA as the runways are too close. Therefore, the phraseology is inapplicable there. Of course, you need not run simultaneously parallel departures at KPDX either---Portland Tower controllers should coordinate with Portland Approach/Departure when running simultaneous parallel departures and issue takeoff clearances accordingly.

As for the "late night" RNAV SIDs at KSEA (ISBRG/JEFPO/OZWLD), the SEA_APP/DEP controller would, on initial contact with a departure on these SIDs, say: "Radar contact, continue the departure except maintain 15,000." If you need to confirm altitude, do so as usual. Saying "climb and maintain" deletes the crossing restriction at WUREL, so fine if you intend to do that. You can, of course, give a clearance direct to XYZ at any time and essentially take the aircraft off the SID, but this would be unreaslistic---these SIDs are essentially noise abatement departures to keep late night traffic from overflying residential areas north of Sea-Tac. Therefore, I would recommend giving aircraft the on-course vector (or proceed direct) as they reach the last fix on the SID, or at least tell them (for example) "after JEFPO, proceed direct ALPSE" or similar.

Dylan Lundberg
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Re: KPDX v KSEA

Post by Dylan Lundberg » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:17 am

This is a good point, Peter. Frank hit's the nail on the head (like he usually does... :beer: ). During my training through the ranks (although at that time, "climb via SID" probably wasn't even a thought yet..) my instructor and mentor made it a little easier to grasp for me. He always insisted that if the RNAV departure off of different runways leads to the same waypoint (look at the LAVAA6) you need not use "RNAV to PEGTY/RIVRR" because they lead to the same point. However, like the HAROB out of SEA, because each runway has a unique intersection, the "RNAV TO..." is required per the 7110, and more importantly - to ensure these VATSIM pilots set up the departure correctly for the correct runway.

I know my post isn't full of 7110 references (kudos to Frank, again!!!) but that is how I was taught, and how I remember when I need that phraseology, and when I don't!

Although - after writing this post - it appears that the 7110.65X does not specifically state that my scenario is 100% accurate. Maybe Frank has some more meaningful posts?!

Thanks Peter, and Frank!
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Frank Miller
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Re: KPDX v KSEA

Post by Frank Miller » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:33 am

I would only add that I also thought it was odd to give the "RNAV to [initial fix]" when the initial fix was the same for all runways. Yet, my reading of the 5-8-2 is that you give the instruction nonetheless. The reason why can be found by a close reading of the PDF of the release (linked in my original post).

The rationale for the instruction is to avoid errors arising from a pilot loading the incorrect SID in the FMS, including as a result of a change in runway assignment from what might have been expected when the pilot was given clearance and loaded the SID into the FMS while at the gate. For instance, say the winds have changed and instead of being assigned 28L as expected, a KPDX departure is given 10R----when they hear "RNAV to RIVRR" and see their first fix in their FMS is PEGTY, they ought to recognize a potential problem and correct it before everyone (in particular the aircraft departing simultaneously from 10L) gets a surprise a few hundred feet off the ground!

Accordingly, in my view, any time simultaneous parallel departure operations are conducted, add the "RNAV to [initial fix]" to the takeoff clearance for eligible SIDs (e.g. RNAV SIDs where the initial fix is other than via a radar vector).

Frank

Mike Fries
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Re: KPDX v KSEA

Post by Mike Fries » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:45 pm

Based on listening to liveatc and looking at flightradar24 and flightaware data it looks like they are clearing them direct around 8000ft. But I'm hoping to hear back from a S46 controller I know.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA ... /KSEA/KPHL
notice this guy was on the JEFPO and was vectored South over the water and the direct NORMY

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VOI ... /KSEA/MMGL

Frank Miller
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Re: KPDX v KSEA

Post by Frank Miller » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 am

I love that 270 left turn over SEA/BFI to get an aircraft going east on course. I’ve used that technique in other circumstances running north ops as well—-e.g. a piston or turboprop heading to NORMY or ZADON with a line of other departures behind and possibly some inbounds on the downwind descending along the east side of the airport. Left turn over Elliott Bay, then south close in over the sound (inside the west side downwind for arrivals) and the right overhead the field in the turn east bound.

Pilots absolutely love it if they are VMC.

Frank

Chris Brettrager
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Re: KPDX v KSEA

Post by Chris Brettrager » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:28 am

As long as an aircraft makes it to the departure gate you can turn left over BFI to get it there (being mindful of aircraft on MARNR downwind which isn't used that heavily even in real life), and it definitely is a great noise technique. Like it.
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