Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

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Michael Mcqueen
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Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Michael Mcqueen » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Hey all,
Looking for some input on the proper way to perform the LOC Z RWY 16R approach at KPAE. Jim T and I had some fun today with this, but I have a lingering question that I was wondering if you could all help answer.

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My question is, if you enter the approach using the PAE entry point and intercept the PAE 343° radial northbound, how does one get into the procedure turn at WEBVE (circled in blue)? Are you supposed to side step a specific amount to enter the 343° holding pattern leg and then make the right procedure turn to intercept PAE 163° radial southbound?

Jim threw me a bone and let me do the CVV 089° radial intercept instead, thanks Jim!

Frank Miller
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Frank Miller » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:33 pm

Mike,

I believe you can use any method you like to enter a hold—-if I’m not mistaken, the FAA doesn’t mandate any particular way, although the holds as depicted on charts are based on protected airspace in the overall system and assume you will enter a hold following one of the three recommended entry procedures. The three conventional (and recommended) hold entry methods are:direct, parallel, and teardrop. You can look these up (and how to determine which to use) on multiple internet aviation websites.

When you are heading directly into the hold depicted on the ILS RWY 16R chart you referenced, when coming from the south on the outbound course (i.e.in the opposite direction of the approach and the hold), you would generally choose a parallel entry. You would fly (at appropriate airspeed) into the hold northbound, proceed north of WEVBE about 1 minute, then turn left to a heading of, perhaps, 130 degrees to cross WEVBE and then join the hold as depicted. Technically, assuming you are at or above the appropriate crossing altitude, you could simply overfly WEVBE and join the inbound course (i.e. you wouldn’t actually do a lap in the hold).

ZLA in their pilot cert program had a great example of this for the I-6 rating, with some additional detailed materials for how to fly this sort of approach/hold-in-lieu (see http://pilotcerts.laartcc.org/object/i6Rating.html).

Happy to hear from others if there are other views!

Frank

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Jim Thompson
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Jim Thompson » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:26 pm

Wouldn't it just be a classic "teardrop" entry? After the 343 heading, once passing WEBVE northbound you turn left 20ish degrees and begin the inbound turn within a mile, etc.

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Here is my fancy drawing on top of your fancy drawing:

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Frank Miller
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Frank Miller » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:49 pm

Well you COULD do it that way too..... just seems to me that since you are already on the 343 outbound course, the simpler entry is the parallel.

Frank

Michael Mcqueen
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Michael Mcqueen » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:37 am

Thanks everyone for their responses - I am learning a lot! The linked article and diagram are very helpful. I also found a training video on entering holding patterns here:

(skip to 4:45 for hold entry types and descriptions)

https://youtu.be/waAdGCVa_Bo

Looking again at the chart, I see that the entry point at PAE has you fly 338° at 3000 ft to hit WEBVE (@ PAE DME 13.9). (I was wrong previously, as WEBVE is not on the PAE 343° radial, it is on the PAE 338° radial and the I-PAE 343° radial.) Since you are approaching WEBVE technically from the southeast side and thus the teardrop sector per the diagram, would that mean that you would depart WEBVE heading 313° (approx 30° intercept of the 343° outbound leg per video) for 1 minute, then finally right turn to intercept the 163° I-PAE ILS course of 163°?

I have created yet another fancy drawing demonstrating this. imagine the entry blue line actually over the PAE VOR, I didn't want to obscure it.

Image

Frank Miller
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Frank Miller » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:18 pm

You are right, you can get to WEVBE by flying as depicted from PAE on the 338 PAE radial outbound. That is a feeder route (or approach transition) and techinally isn’t part of the approach itself as PAE isn’t an IAF (as WEVBE is). But it is a great way for ATC to get you to the IAF and allow you to navigate per the chart (including the descent down to 3,000). Another way to get to WEVBE, of course, is the way originally described—-flying the reverse course of the localiser to WEVBE and hitting it on a 343 heading. For that I think you’d need ATC to give you a descent, or otherwise I think you’d need to stay at the MEA/MSA etc until getting into the hold-in-lieu at WEVBE (or given a “cross WEVBE at or below” from ATC when you get cleared for the approach).

I may or may not have this fully correct—-any more experienced folks welcome to chime in.

It never ceases to amaze me how elegantly the approach/arrival/en route puzzle fits together and how much information is packed into these charts.

Frank

Michael Mcqueen
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Michael Mcqueen » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:44 pm

Thanks Frank, and I am now understanding your initial entry proposal better. I am seeing now that flying the back course is yet another of the entry (feeder) options, denoted by the small arrow hiding just above the hold and in the middle of the ILS "alley." WEBVE in this case is used as the IAF (Initial Approach Fix). You sure are right about them packing in a ton of information into these plates! These entry arrows are easy to miss.

So your approach as described would look something like this:

Image

Thanks for working with me on this, I have zero real world theory training so this is helping me learn for the sim.

Frank Miller
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Re: Procedure Turns in Localizer Approaches

Post by Frank Miller » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:00 pm

That little arrow, together with the 343 notation and the shading in half of the ILS “alley” (as you call it) indicates there is a localiser backcourse on at 343 degrees. I don’t think the arrow itself is meaningful alone.

See: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_ ... mplete.pdf

Frank

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